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happyfarmwife
64 Posts
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 Posted - Aug 09 2015 : 12:08:20 PM
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We have an older registered Jersey cow that has been difficult to breed and we finally gave up and put her with an Angus bull for one last try. She blessed us with a beautiful Angus/Jersey bull calf a couple days ago. Sad thing is that due to poor management in her past, she has no working udder left so this is her last calf. We were hoping for a heifer but she has replaced herself in our herd so we are thankful for a live calf and surviving cow.
Question now is should we castrate this fine little guy or leave him a bull for possible use as a dual purpose sire? He's polled, red with black dorsal, black hooves and black face. Excellent dairy pelvis wedge and his dam was a phenomenal milker in her prime so the genetics are there to be a tremendous bull for farmstead use.
Please weigh in and comment......as I really want input from the group!
Thanks,
Jen in miserable steamy Oklahoma |
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maryjane
7074 Posts
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Posted - Aug 09 2015 : 2:07:01 PM
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Hi Jen,
It seems like when it comes to marketing, people who are thinking about getting a milk cow seek singularity based on info they get online (for the most part). In other words, they ask for a particular breed. Miniature Jersey, Dexter, Guernsey, and Brown Swiss seem to be at the top of the list and in that order. Or A2A2 and that's it. If you have a miniature A2A2 Jersey, consider it sold to the highest bidder, no questions asked, no udder photos required.
People who breed have a more sophisticated palate that has developed over time and we forget that the language we use or the guarantees we make about udder genetics and whether or not a cow is "registered" confuses most people who are new to the idea. Once you become fascinated with cows and breed them, it doesn't seem so weird to mix and match breeds. You could in fact end up with a line of pretty amazing milk cows but they'd be hard to market unless you thoroughly documented everything in the marketing of them. (Keep in mind that whoever buys them has to in turn market the offspring produced.)
If you can prove through photos the remarkable udder on the Jersey side you'd also have to inform them that the bull used was half that equation and what could you show about his Angus udder genetics unless of course you waited to sell said offspring until it was an actual milk cow giving milk and strutting its stuff so to speak. Do you have photos of her working udder when it was a working udder? And what went wrong with her udder? Unfortunately, those aren't questions people ask when you say, "Yes, I have a miniature A2A2 Jersey." With a mixed breed, you're going to have to go to a lot more effort to sell someone on the idea because it isn't simple, singular, Dodge vs. Chevy.
People I know who mix breeds have a hard time selling them. If it were me I'd turn him into a steer and stick with Jersey milk cows.
One more thing I thought of. We pop a lot of cows photos up on Facebook. Over and over again, the cow faces that go viral with hundreds of shares and comments are Jersey faces. Not black and white or solid black faces or red faces. They love Jersey faces with the black eyelashes, slender nose, white muzzle, fawn/reddish coat, chocolate eyes. I'm not sure why, perhaps it's because they more closely resemble a deer (Bambi?).
Well, that's my 2 cents worth!!! |
MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~ |
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CloversMum
3486 Posts
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Posted - Aug 09 2015 : 6:16:46 PM
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| As a newbie with cows, I don't have any experience selling them. However, when I was dreaming of getting a family milk cow, I always looked up pure breeds, rather than mixes. I read up on Jerseys, Guernseys and Dexters. I never thought of Angus as a milking breed. I did see many mixes up for sale and they were always less expensive than pure breeds. So I think you would need to work harder at advertising and educating potential buyers for your offspring and you would need to offer them at a lower price than pure breeds. I could be completely wrong as you need to remember I am just a newbie! Just sharing my own experience and thoughts. |
Loving life and family on our Idaho farm, Meadowlark Heritage Farm; A few Jersey cows; a few alpacas; a few more goats, and even more ducks and chickens |
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happyfarmwife
64 Posts
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Posted - Aug 09 2015 : 7:07:36 PM
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Hi MaryJane, Thank you for your input, I really appreciate that you took time to respond. I think we will leave this beautiful little bull a bull for now. He's polled which is a plus and he comes from excellent Angus genetics from his sire. I'll get some photos of some of his full beef half sisters for future reference and we have lots of photo of Quebec, the Jersey who is a beautiful cow. As for the udder issues, this cow came to us from a small commercial dairy where there was no consistency in the milk parlor. This cow was a very high production cow but her front quarters milked slowly(small teat openings) and the back quarters milked quickly. She developed mastitis in one quarter while at the dairy so they just "dried up" that quarter. The things that happen to cows in a production setting are often horrible and I won't go in to all the terrible things I have witnessed.
With Quebec, we hand milk and it is easy to understand why this cow did not survive well in a commercial dairy setting where several different family members on the dairy did the milking and nobody took time to notice that this cow needed extra care to make sure she got complete milk out.
Commercial dairies demand uniformity and this cow didn't "fit" so she was culled and we got her. Since we have had her we have worked at dealing with the scar tissue and problems from poor treatment and poor management from past problems. It is not a genetic issue as her dam and granddam have tremendous production records....it's poor care from before she came to us.
Last lactation only half of her udder was productive in spite of our best efforts. She was able to raise her calf and that was about it. We let the calf nurse twice a day figuring that the best activity for her udder was the natural process of a calf......and we were hopeful. However after we dried her off she developed some knots/hard spots which abscessed out and drained, again we were hopeful that maybe nature had helped us out and walled off the old damage and disposed of it. As the scar tissue and crud in her udder continued to take over, the udder has become non functional. Two teats produce only a squirt or two of very yellow thick liquid, one quarter produces what feels almost like sand and is more like very yellow cottage cheese than milk and the fourth quarter feels like it's ok but there's no fluid milk available. There is no heat in her udder but milking her causes extreme pain so we have chosen to let her dry up rather than work on getting the udder in production. The concern is that with the old damage and possible gram negative crud that may be lying there in the udder, that if we do a lot of massaging and treatment we may turn loose something that will kill the cow. There is no heat in the udder, it still looks like a working udder but doesn't work........
The stagnant infection in the udder can be deadly. A dear friend lost her best foundation Nubian dairy doe this spring due to a similar issue. The goat's udder looked normal at kidding but seemed harder than normal. The doe had a difficult time giving birth and seemed "off" during the birth of her baby, a very large single buck kid. After the birth, one side of the udder was very hard and did not produce any colostrum or milk at all. We gave antibiotics immediately after the birth and tried to get the hard side of the udder to function. The massaging, hot towels and attempt to get that part of the udder working turned loose a gram negative bacteria which had set up in that side of the udder and it ultimately caused the death of the doe. The doe went downhill rapidly after the birth and we treated for what appeared to be milk fever but the doe showed little response to the calcium and care. Within 8 hours after the birth of her baby, she was not able to rise. Even with aggressive intensive care at the best veterinary hospital in Oklahoma, the doe died. The infection that had developed in her udder while she was dry did not show up as the classic mastitis type infection was released by the hormones of birth and the normal edema of the udder getting ready for milk production caused the release of all those toxins and ultimately overwhelmed her kidneys and liver and caused her death.
So our concern for Quebec the Jersey is that if we take aggressive measures in working on this udder that it will turn loose something terrible that will kill the cow!
She's coming up twice a day to talk to her baby and I feel so bad for her...as she wants to do her job and care for her calf. At this point her udder has a little edema like a normal productive udder but nothing works. It hurts to see this beautiful cow in this condition....and hoping that she dries up quickly and recovers her strength and health.
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Edited by - happyfarmwife on Aug 09 2015 7:12:58 PM |
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Ron
4666 Posts
Ronnie
Peever
SD
USA
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Posted - Aug 10 2015 : 05:32:55 AM
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| Honestly I would have to say that calf would have to be a steer around here. There are so very many many good options for pure herd sires that the thought of trying to breed up ain't worth the time and money...just my opinion on it. Not putting the animal down at all just the way it would have to be. |
With a moo moo here and a moo moo there, here a moo, there a moo, everywhere a moo moo. |
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happyfarmwife
64 Posts
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Posted - Aug 10 2015 : 06:03:48 AM
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| The fact that in our part of the country there are a lot of homesteaders that are looking for dual purpose cattle and the downsizing factor, this Angus/Jersey guy may have value as a potential herdsire. We can always sell him across the scale at the livestock auction as a beef animal. If he shows promise as a sire we can sell him either way. Once he's a steer, there's no going back. |
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maryjane
7074 Posts
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Posted - Aug 10 2015 : 3:10:10 PM
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| You're right, there's no hurry to decide. The longer you wait, the more muscle they put on. Thanks for letting us weigh in on what is clearly a tough decision for you. The concern and care you give his mother is rare and admirable. She's one lucky milk cow to have been adopted by you. |
MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~ |
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GingerBKelly
274 Posts
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Posted - Aug 18 2015 : 06:35:04 AM
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I agree with Mary Jane, "People I know who mix breeds have a hard time selling them. If it were me I'd turn him into a steer and stick with Jersey milk cows."
AI is cost effective, easy and available. Most people with lovely Jersey heifers and sound dairy stock have no use for a mutt bull for breeding purposes, sorry to say.
Jersey/Angus cross steers are excellent for beef, if you don't wait too long to castrate him.
There are at least 5 good reasons to castrate now, rather than wait till later.
If you wait:
1. Vet costs will increase.
2. You risk the health of the steer.
3. The steer suffers more (more painful).
4. The beef will not be as tender.
5. (most important) Bulls are very dangerous.
No matter how tame your bull is now, your cute little super-adorable hand-raised bull will become what nature intended, aggressive. It is in a bull's nature to be dominant, even over their handlers. At this point, fluffy or blackie (or whatever you named him) has the potential to kill you. Why risk it? Is it worth having a bull to risk serious bodily harm or even death, for you and your children? For this reason alone, a steer is the best way to go.
Besides, steers are just way too sweet. They are adorable and easy to train. Some people train them to pull carts or farming implements. Steers are also great companions for people and other cows. They also help owners visually know when heifers are in standing heat (naturally), a very nice perk, indeed.  |
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GingerBKelly
274 Posts
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NellieBelle
11217 Posts
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Posted - Aug 18 2015 : 08:30:11 AM
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| Hello GingerBKelly and welcome to the group! What I know about "bulls" you could put in a thimble and that's why I castrate my male calves when just a few weeks old. If I were a breeder or looking to start a dairy herd it may be different but for my small little operation I have going here, I will stick to AI and stay with the Jersey breed. The information here on the HJO site from MaryJane has been most informative and unless you know what you're doing and have the right set up, pens and education, then it just makes sense to go the way of the AI and the steer. |
To laugh is human but to moo is bovine. Author Unknown |
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happyfarmwife
64 Posts
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Posted - Aug 18 2015 : 09:54:27 AM
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For clarity, please take a look at what we do....We breed, raise and train farmstead dairy cows and when they are ready we offer them for sale. Our breed of choice at this point is Dutch Belted and Viking Red dairy cattle. We use Jersey cows because that is what is available in our area that gives the right size, production and good genetics to use in the "breeding-up" program to preserve the Dutch Belted dairy cattle breed.
With the Dutch Belted dairy cattle, we are protecting and preserving a rare, highly endangered breed of dairy cattle that were down to fewer than 200 purebred animals in the USA and fewer than 400 TOTAL in the WORLD! By using high quality semen from superior bulls, we are doing our part to help preserve those great old genetics and to add to the knowledge base so that people will consider Dutch Belted dairy cattle for outstanding forage based dairying.
We AI everything......when we produce an outstanding dairy genetics bull calf, they are generally sold before they are weaned for three to four times what they would bring as beef/steer/freezer bait and every single dairy bull calf has gone to a homestead breeder to improve genetics in their operation!
I was curious if anyone would consider this bull calf as a potential bull. We don't need him here, we have a semen tank and at this point have 10 bulls represented there including some of the best dairy genetics in the world.
I didn't need a lecture on why not to keep a calf a bull......I really like the Angus bull responsible for this little calf......The dam of this calf is some of the best production Jersey genetics available today. He's not junk, he's not an aggravation.......he is a really nice beef/dairy crossbred. He is the product of a last ditch attempt to keep his dam from going to slaughter.......since we had bred her 10 cycles AI without success. I'd certainly rather have a live calf than to cull the lovely old cow without giving her one more chance!
SO everybody pull in your horns and quit pawing the ground......More than likely this guy will eventually go for beef......but for now he's a bouncing baby bull...... |
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maryjane
7074 Posts
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Posted - Aug 18 2015 : 10:07:18 AM
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I'm having a hard time with the same decision right now. My newest miniature bull, Sweet William, is perfect in every way except the A2A2 thing that people favor. Presently, I have two bulls but he's such a fine specimen of a bull. Everything you'd want in a small homestead bull.
I'm going to delay the decision because I have the WSU facility where he can go for a later fix should I decide to do that. It's never an easy decision for me either and I keep thinking someone will want this awesome guy. |
MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~ |
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NellieBelle
11217 Posts
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Posted - Aug 18 2015 : 10:45:21 AM
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| You have such good stock from which Sweet William came from, have and know his parents history etc. I could see where you would have a difficult time deciding. But you also have experience with bulls and know how they need to be socialized etc. so I could see where you would hesitate in making him a steer if he would make good breeding stock for yourself or others who are interested. It's a good problem to have. |
To laugh is human but to moo is bovine. Author Unknown |
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GingerBKelly
274 Posts
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Posted - Aug 19 2015 : 12:18:31 PM
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| Thank you, NellieBelle for your warm welcome. I believe I will enjoy conversations regarding Cattle and especially the Heritage Jersey. |
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NellieBelle
11217 Posts
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Posted - Aug 19 2015 : 12:37:10 PM
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| Always good to hear fresh and new ideas, viewpoints and experiences. Welcome yours as well as everyone else's. That's how we learn and grow. Prevents mistakes and helps us become better caregivers to our animals. Are you milking cows or have a milk cow GingerBKelly? |
To laugh is human but to moo is bovine. Author Unknown |
Edited by - NellieBelle on Aug 19 2015 12:39:11 PM |
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happyfarmwife
64 Posts
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Posted - Aug 19 2015 : 3:19:09 PM
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Since Beta-Casein testing is so new and the company who created the test has done a lot of promotion and hype, we really don't know for sure that the true difference between A1/A1.....A1/A2.....A2/A2
So when you have an incredible cow or bull I can't find it in my heart to cull simply on that new "fad"......As fads tend to change things may show up that brings new light on the Beta-Casein factor...Maybe instead of being "bad" for human consumption, A1/A1 reduces bad cholesterol? THEN WHAT? All those lovely genetics wasted, thrown away, culled, made into hamburger.......
Although I am interested in the new trends in livestock, I despise what it does to the gene pool when something gets insane like this trend/fad has done!
That's my thoughts anyway!..... |
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maryjane
7074 Posts
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Posted - Aug 19 2015 : 3:25:03 PM
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| The A2A2 thing makes me feel, well, bullied if you will. I can imagine how my cattle feel about it. |
MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~ |
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happyfarmwife
64 Posts
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Posted - Aug 19 2015 : 4:57:24 PM
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| I have a lovely little milk cow who tested A1/A1. She has a wonderful udder, perfect temperament and attitude for a family milk cow and she's NO LESS VALUABLE to me than before I knew her Beta-Casein status! She has stolen my heart....she's very quiet and reserved so when she chooses her person, YOU ARE SPECIAL in her world.......and I take that very seriously! She likes me and I'm not the "cow person" in the family.......now I like cows a lot and am gentle and kind with them and respect them highly.....My husband is the COW PERSON.....and this little girl has chosen me to be her friend......She backs away from my husband and although she knows her job and where she fits in the partnership, and comes in for milking for him just fine, she has chosen me.......she's MY GIRL!....GIGGLE!!!!! |
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maryjane
7074 Posts
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Posted - Aug 19 2015 : 6:40:41 PM
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| How sweet is that?! I know that my cows have distinct personalities and like and dislikes. That's part of the fun, and intrigue I suppose. Can you give us a link to your website for your Dutch Belted and Viking Red? |
MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~ |
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happyfarmwife
64 Posts
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Posted - Aug 19 2015 : 7:49:33 PM
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I'm working on our farm website so it's not current on the cow projects.....
However here's great general information on the Dutch Belted dairy cattle: http://dutchbelted.com/
And the Viking Red, also called Danish Red cattle are incredible dairy animals! The AVERAGE number of lactations for a TYPICAL American Holstein dairy cow is 2......TWO LACTATIONS and they are culled, thrown away, turned into hamburger for some reason.....
With the Viking Red dairy cattle, some of the very first Viking Red cows born in America are still in production at the age of 15! That is in a commercial dairy setting, not a pet, not a special project cow......those cows are on the line producing still, having a calf every year and doing well! One thing that impressed me is the intelligence and survivability factor of the Viking Red(Danish Red) dairy cattle. Nearly EVERY dairy that has used Viking Red semen has had so many lovely heifers survive and THRIVE that they have had to open a second dairy to use the great cows they are producing! With the traditional American Holstein, the calves are hard to keep alive and often succumb to an infection before their first birthday.........or require such aggressive intensive care to keep them alive that it's a losing proposition to raise replacement heifers. The Viking Red calves have VIGOR.....and intelligence.......they learn quickly and WANT TO STAY ALIVE! Something which is missing from the American Holstein breed! So we are super excited to have two of the first Viking Red heifers born in Oklahoma! And they are wonderful......
This is the company we purchased semen from. They are wonderful devoted fans of the breed and we are excited to see where the breed develops in our world!
http://www.creativegeneticsofca.com/swedish.htm |
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happyfarmwife
64 Posts
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Posted - Aug 19 2015 : 7:53:05 PM
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One more fun note..........the current heifer calf of the Dutch Belted cow that has chosen me........ADORES ME! She will nuzzle my arm, hand or elbow requesting attention......so she has chosen me as did her mom.....she will chew on my shirt tail.......nuzzle and pick at me until I pet her......Her name is Cupid.....she has an incomplete belt that looks like a heart on one side.....and Cupid love me like her momma does! I think that's wonderful and humbling to have a large animal LIKE me!
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maryjane
7074 Posts
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Posted - Aug 19 2015 : 8:39:30 PM
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| I'm dying to see pics of Cupid. Isn't cow adoration the best thing since bread and butter? When I tucked both Elsa and Ester in for the night a few minutes ago, they gave me lots of good night kisses. |
MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~ |
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happyfarmwife
64 Posts
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Posted - Aug 20 2015 : 05:36:16 AM
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This photo was taken when Cupid was just under a month old. I'll take some fresh photos soon as she's nearing weaning time and she's changed a lot and is a lovely dairy heifer. |
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farmlife
1413 Posts
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Posted - Aug 20 2015 : 06:38:06 AM
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| Some people down the road from us have a Dutch Belted cow. When we drive by my kids always say, "There's Oreo cow." Cupid is absolutely adorable! She's earned her name. |
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happyfarmwife
64 Posts
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Posted - Aug 20 2015 : 06:57:59 AM
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They are very distinctive looking cattle. The belted breeds include the beef side of the genetics which is what most people are familiar with....look like old style Angus with a belt....Oreo cattle! The Dutch Belted, also called Lakenvelder which roughly translated means "sheeted" cow because they look like they are wearing a white sheet over their middles is the dairy side of the belted cow breeds....NOTE: I have quite a collection of Foxfire books and have found a number of Dutch Belted dairy cows(and bulls) featured there.
The Dutch Belted were very popular into the middle of the last century but when people quit keeping a dairy cow for family milk, the dairy lines were almost completely lost. When the breed gets down to less than 400 in the world, that's almost gone!
The American registry opened up the herd books for "genetic recovery" using the "Breeding up" option. So any dairy breed cow can be used when bred to a Dutch Belted bull from the herd book. The female offspring are then "recorded"(registered) as 50% 75% etc. The male offspring cannot be recorded until they are offspring from the fifth generation(0.9375% pure). |
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NellieBelle
11217 Posts
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Posted - Aug 20 2015 : 07:01:59 AM
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| Nothing cuter than a calf. Thanks for sharing the photo. |
To laugh is human but to moo is bovine. Author Unknown |
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Keep him a bull?
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